i'll always be king of pain

[erika]

This is a direct quote from an IM chat Ellen* and I were having (note, I never said I wanted to feel normal, just "less depressed"). Bold is mine, italics and extraneous use of quotation marks is hers:

maybe your goal should be to feel less "like this" because that seems more achievable. and if you're not going to kill yourself, then you might as well figure out what is going to make our life least miserable, instead of hoping everything's going to change someday and you will feel "normal."

so instead of trying to feel not "like this" or "normal", just try to minimize your misery and feel less depressed. people who have mental illnesses for as long as you've had generally don't get to be "normal." but some of them can be "pretty okay" or "better than before".

So, great! I should be so grateful to only feel like complete suicidal whale shit at the bottom of the ocean 20% of the time instead of 80% of the time! Look on the bright side! It's not like you're ever really going to recover, so maybe this is as good as it gets!

I don't even know.

Maybe it's me? Am I crazy for thinking that it's possible to have a full, bright life without the spectre of depression hanging over me at every turn? I mean, is it even possible to truly beat this, even after living 20 years with it? Ellen sure doesn't seem to think so.

*not her real name

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oh, also, go ahead and unscreen. I am aggressively public about this shit.

[recessional]

I interpret her comments as being "I don't want to hear about your problems anymore, so put up and shut up." So there, my semi-solicited internet advice is "don't talk to not!Ellen about this anymore, she is not helpful."

In terms of your central question . . . my honest answer is, I don't know.

I mean, I know it's possible, period. I know people who've done it. I also know people who haven't, and I know lots of people who have the same back and forth living-fight that I kind of have with it: my drugs and my CBT giving me formidable weapons, but every now and then (so to speak) there's a Depression Uprising and we have to go to battle again. (I'm in the middle of one of those now.)

And I'm always hesitant to say "yes! You can totally beat this!" because, well, I don't know and in some ways that's opening oneself up to recrimination and self-hatred later, you know? When someone says "well so and so got better, so it's totally possible!" and then one doesn't, and one feels like a failure.

I think it's possible to seek out, treasure and make fortresses of the good things. I think it's possible to go to war against the black dog (so to speak) and to grimly try every weapon if necessary. (This was a promise I made: I would try everything, until something helped; it's still my promise, if what I have now stops helping).

And I think it's possible to live, in spite of it - I think it's possible to have a life that matters, to do things that matter. And I think it's important to remember that it's an illness, not a part of us - and like any other chronic illness, you learn to work around it, to treat it, to defend against it, but it's not you.

I think you can find things that are good, that are happymaking, that are restful, that are contenting. I think you can cling to them when the bad times hit. I think it's hard and this is a fucking evil disease.

But I don't think you are obligated to shut up, stop whining, and settle for "oh well, I don't want to kill myself, so I'm pretty okay."

I don't know if that's an answer, or what it answers. But.

(But seriously: not!Ellen does not sound like a useful person to talk about this shit to. Srs advice: don't.)

Permission to unscreen

[rydra_wong]

I'm still trying to figure this one out myself, because I'm coming to feel fairly certain that I'm not going to get back to being who I was before the Giant Psychiatric Clusterfuck of '09.

I think some things in my head got broken in ways that aren't fixable. There are some scary grooves burnt into my brain that I can fall into way too easily, and I don't think that's ever going to go away completely.

I don't think that's necessarily true for everyone who's been through severe mental illness, but I suspect it's the case for me.

So ... "normal" is probably out of the window, and so is getting to feel 100% like the old me, if only because I've been through a level of trauma that the old me hadn't. And I have to grieve for that.

And one of the things I was discussing with my psych last time I saw him is that right now (nearly two years after this started), the depression's not in remission, just medicated under control; if we try tweaking the meds at all, it comes boiling up again within a matter of days. He hopes it will go into remission at some point, but it hasn't yet.

BUT.

A full, bright life, and some kind of long-term stability, at least enough that I don't have the spectre hanging over me on a daily basis -- fuck yeah I want that, and more than that, I am hopeful that I will get it. I have had some really good times since this happened, and I have every intention of having lots more of them. The "how" is trickier, but I'm working on that.

I don't know Ellen, so I don't know what she intended, but for me at least, "I may never get to be who I was before and this may never go away 100%" (and it hurts to have to think that, I'm sure you know exactly how much, and I hate having to type it) =/= "This is as good as it gets".

Because I believe the former (whether because it's true or because I'm especially pessimistic right now because I'm still recovering from the aforementioned shit-that-wasn't-a-good-idea meds tweak), and I don't believe the latter.

ETA: Not saying that you are necessarily permanently fucked up in the way I suspect I am permanently fucked up, because you =/= me. And I have no idea what's possible for you.

What I suppose I am saying is that even if it's not possible to go back to how one was before, even if "normal" isn't possible, the full bright life can still be.

I may have misread a line in Ellen's comment; it only just occurred to me that "better than before" may have meant "meh, better than I was yesterday" as opposed to "better than before I got ill." Because I do believe the latter's possible. Maybe not for me, but who knows? I intend to have an interesting time trying.

Anyway. I, er, hope that's some use? Or at least not actively annoying? I'm rambling here because, as I said, I'm trying to figure this shit out for myself.

[/tl;dr]

[dingsi]

(On DW, your reply doesn't unscreen someone's comment but gets screened too. Isn't it awesome? - Oh and you may unscreen this IF you have set your journal to block outside search engines.)


Hmm. On the one hand, yeah, I hear you.
On the other hand, I hear Ellen too.
And for some context so I don't come across as someone talking out of his ass: I've had depression and eventually anxiety disorder since my teens and only came out of the worst of it in, I dunno, 2003? After being a day-patient in a psych hospital because I was suicidal. (I admitted myself, basically.) I still struggle with depression-related behaviour patterns and the various legacies from the time when I couldn't look after myself, nor my flat. I don't need medication though.
That being said:

I don't think one can "beat" depression like one can "beat", say, a broken leg. But I've stopped thinking about it in those terms because I realised that it only put me under stress. It set up a dichotomy between the "normal" people who seemingly were happy and successful, and ME, where ME meant "loser who cannot have those things". (Which by the way isn't true, but we'll come to that in a minute.) So I was constantly thinking of The Goal Of Normalcy but of course I couldn't just snap my fingers and make my depression and my past disappear, so I automatically set myself up for disappointment and even more guilt and self-loathing. Like, when I had a string of great days and then a depressive episode I beat myself up over it, like that episode automatically negated all the good stuff that had come before ... And I'm sick of beating myself up, you know?

The thing is, I don't think that having a "full, bright life" and depression are mutually exclusive. I mean, yes, when you're currently at the bottom, then... you know how it is. I know how it is. I don't want to go into details. It's definitely not bright and fullfilling. And I'm glad I fought it, and I'll keep fighting in that regard.

But I stopped believing that one day I will not be A Person With Depression anymore. I think a bit of it will always stick with me, onto me, and these experiences have shaped me so they are a part of me. So in that sense, no, you cannot leave it behind, not in my personal opinion, and I have made my peace with that.

What I think I can and will have is a life that isn't sucked dry by depression anymore. I've made progress and my quality of life has increased greatly. I'd say there is brightness where there was hardly any just two or three years ago, and I consider my life to be full. Not perfect, not very successful, perhaps mediocre, but it's a good life. And I'm okay with that. It's not that my mood swings have stopped or that I'm never depressed anymore, but that when they happen they don't debilitate me as much as they used to, crisises are way smaller in emotional scope and don't last that long, and sometimes I can see them coming and work around them or find out what set me off. Which is worth so much. It doesn't look like it, but it means a lot to me.

Short version: I will never be normal, but I'll be fine, and I like that. It's a goal I can work with.

This was perhaps more philosophical than I initially intended, and of course it's about my own experience so I don't know if it's of use to you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're crazy, and I believe it's entirely possible that you will live a life "without the spectre of depression hanging over [you] at every turn". I wouldn't say you ought to feel grateful for only being suicidal 20% of the time (though I am aware that was sarcasm on your part), but actually, as someone who thought he wouldn't make it past 30 I also think that 80% of non-suicidal time instead of just 20% or 0% are pretty darn great. I'm not saying you don't have a right to feel talked down to or upset, just that I honestly believe Ellen has a point.

[erika]

totally unrelated to my post but related to your comment:
(On DW, your reply doesn't unscreen someone's comment but gets screened too. Isn't it awesome? - Oh and you may unscreen this IF you have set your journal to block outside search engines.)

That's fucking awesome. It does send your reply to the person, though, right?

[erika]

I'm sorry! I didn't realize I had disabled comments on the depression entry. I fixed that as soon as I read your comment.

[chiller]

ACH! I think this comes straight out of some tome on psychoanalysis or something because I had an analyst once say exactly this to me. EXACTLY.

And yes, as a short term goal it is excellent advice. Aiming to feel less shit is necessary and admirable. But telling someone who suffers depression that hoping for happiness is unrealistic? Sure, in the next week or month. It's a long road up from a depression. But let me tell you, as someone who suffered major depression on and off all her life until a few years ago, it's a crock. Your brain is perfectly capable of knowing happiness and creating a home for it in your head. Perfectly capable. It might take you a while to get there, but it is absolutely possible and worth striving for. x

[erika]

Thanks, fixed. I meant to bold the part where she says people who have mental illnesses for as long as you've had generally don't get to be "normal."

[disastrously]

Hi, Erika.

You have my permission to unscreen this, if you like. I really don't mind at all if anyone sees what I said.

I don't think you're crazy at all for thinking you can live a full, bright life. I think it's possible to beat depression. I mean, there will likely always be a chance you will drop back down that rabbit hole so to speak, but it's not hopeless at all.

Also, that comment was, I feel, rather insensitive on Ellen's part. That sort of thing hurts badly to be told. And I think feeling less depressed is a worthy goal. In fact, it's one I personally strive for. I think this might be the other extreme to the phenomenon I usually get where people tell me to "smile and it will go away."

Anyhow, I don't think you should settle for being "suicidal whale shit" twenty per cent of the time. You can beat this.

okay to unscreen, everyone knows I'm Like This

[thatyourefuse]

First of all, drat you for getting that song stuck in my head.

Second of all, I do agree with many of the above commenters that that's a fairly insensitive way of phrasing anything. Not least because -- well --

-- this is leading up to one of my uncontrollable self-centered coredumps, and that's a terrible first comment to leave for anyone, and I'm really, really sorry --

-- not least because for me, at least, I don't know about you, it resonates way too much with the part of my brain that's inclined to believe it.

I mean -- okay -- background -- I believe I had what I'd tend to call my "depressive break" in sixth grade. Lots of external stressors that I don't really need to go into, hormones going whackadoo at the same time, I was never really normal to begin with, but sixth grade. We'll call that pretty much half my life.

I've been more or less effectively medicated for the last year. And one of my braindrugs is currently crapping out on me, and I don't know which one, and I still, at my peak, function at maybe 75% of what I see the relatively average people around me doing, and I had some pretty extensive childhood experience of being told I was Above Average and should be performing commensurately. I have brainfug, constantly. (I've been thinking about adding an ADD med, but I have to try upping the Wellbutrin first, and the last one I tried gave me pretty much uncontrollable rage, and and and...) I have fatalistic thoughts, constantly. I am unbelievably insecure, constantly. I have good days, but every day I wake up thinking "okay, what hurts? Am I going to get anything productive done? Am I going to guilt myself to death for not getting anything productive done? Am I going to burst out crying in the middle of math class today because I'm such a goddamn fucking idiot, and if so, is it worth risking my grade to just skip it?"

(My grades are shit more often than I would like. I am afraid to know what they're like for last term -- which is not all about the grey psychic cloud I think I've been in for about three months now, but that didn't help. Do I get a lot of support from my parents on this front? Do I buggery. I am afraid of getting my computer taken away because of my grades from last term. They can do that. I live with them. They paid for it. I am basically powerless. I get reminded of that. Often. That's really irrelevant, it's just high on the list of things that are making me want to throw up lately, so it forced itself into the conversation.)

And my biggest-fucking-why-not-kill-myself-now trigger is "oh, god, what if it never gets any better than this." I don't know if it's one of yours or not? But I'm guessing I'm not the only one. Which means, you know, that is right up there with "have you tried positive thinking?" on the list of the Most Unbelievably Fucking Insensitive Things I Can Imagine Anyone Saying, and you are not unjustified in feeling, well, slightly miffed. (I don't know the context. But.)

I mean, I don't know if better is possible? I mean, I don't know your brain, and I barely know mine, and I'm not sure I'd recognize better if it bit me? But fucking god, anyone who goes around encouraging the brainworm that says it isn't... that's some deeply thoughtless, negligent bullshit right there.

I also mean, I've spent a couple hours not replying to this at all, because I knew I was going to go off like this, and I don't actually want to inflict that on anyone, but -- thing. (N.B. Not your fault for posting. I've been going off on everything lately. I had a twenty-minute freakout yesterday over one word in a post I wasn't even involved in.) I do apologize. My brain just does that.

*hides*

*offers hugs*

[erika]

First off, sorry for earworming you! It wasn't even intentional this time.

In point of fact, I could just give a big fucking ME TOO to your entire comment (except for the parent bits, my parents are fortunately awesome, but anyway) but I will keep on replying because you deserve a good reply since you are so awesome.

-- not least because for me, at least, I don't know about you, it resonates way too much with the part of my brain that's inclined to believe it.

YES YES YES.

I still, at my peak, function at maybe 75% of what I see the relatively average people around me doing, and I had some pretty extensive childhood experience of being told I was Above Average and should be performing commensurately.

Oh god, yes, me too!

I have brainfug, constantly. [...] I have fatalistic thoughts, constantly. I am unbelievably insecure, constantly. I have good days, but every day I wake up thinking "okay, what hurts? Am I going to get anything productive done? Am I going to guilt myself to death for not getting anything productive done? Am I going to burst out crying in the middle of math class today because I'm such a goddamn fucking idiot, and if so, is it worth risking my grade to just skip it?"

SING IT, SISTER. I dropped physics this last semester because I couldn't remember how to do algebraic equations and also because I stood a chance of running into Bryan (he had class directly after mine, and yeah, it was a mess).

A sample from what I have worried about today (possible TMI): a lump in my breast (probably not cancer, probably just fat cells or related to the medication-induced lactation, but IT COULD BE CANCER); what if I kill myself in one of my episodes of depression; my back hurts because I slouch and I am going to have back pain forever and get osteoarthritis (I don't even know if that's how you get osteoarthritis); lighting some incense is going to set my house on fire if I leave the room to go to the bathroom; artwork does not include icons so they don't want your stupid submissions, Erika; my friends secretly think I'm a horrible person and they just don't tell me because they don't want to listen to the massive pity party that would ensue; what if the people at the event I'm going to later don't like me (this is patently ridiculous because I've already been to one of these events and they all liked me, but whatevs, STILL WORRYING); AND SO ON.

And my biggest-fucking-why-not-kill-myself-now trigger is "oh, god, what if it never gets any better than this." I don't know if it's one of yours or not?

It absolutely is. Luckily I have started retaining just enough sanity during my depressive moments lately to realize that no, it's not always like this, but I dread if I ever lose that brief grasp on sanity again.

that is right up there with "have you tried positive thinking?" on the list of the Most Unbelievably Fucking Insensitive Things I Can Imagine Anyone Saying, and you are not unjustified in feeling, well, slightly miffed.

Oh, I'm more than slightly miffed. The email I'm drafting originally included the lines:

I'm sorry, when did you get your Master's in Social Work, Psychology, or Marriage and Family Therapy again? When, in the middle of your perfect life, did you have the time to get the combined 45+ years of experience with people with depression that my psychiatric team has?

I decided to take that out, because, true as it is, it's unnecessarily provoking. BUT I STILL FEEL IT, DAMNIT.

I don't know if better is possible? I mean, I don't know your brain, and I barely know mine, and I'm not sure I'd recognize better if it bit me? But fucking god, anyone who goes around encouraging the brainworm that says it isn't... that's some deeply thoughtless, negligent bullshit right there.

Yes, exactly exactly this.

I also mean, I've spent a couple hours not replying to this at all, because I knew I was going to go off like this, and I don't actually want to inflict that on anyone

YOU DO NOT NEED TO APOLOGIZE FOR THIS COMMENT. At all. ♥♥♥

[(Anonymous)]

I've been depressed my entire life and suicide is something I think about most days. I understand what Ellen is saying and the contempt I see for her comment reminds me of how impossible I've been to deal with for others as emotional wilding-out depressed person. Ellen is articulating a point of view I've considered myself in my depression. It is also a point of view I've been forced to implement as a life strategy in dealing with an extremely stressful invisible disability I've developed over the last year that is probably never going to improve and has fucked up.. oh... everything. My plans were completely shattered, and left me with extremely limited options for how to earn money etc. Nevermind how it intrudes on me every minute of the day and takes joy and ease out of everything.

Did I miss the part where Ellen implied you should be grateful not to feel like whale shit 80% of the time? What I see is someone discouraging a person whose been hurting and variously suffering for most of their life to fixate on being entirely free of their pain and 100% normal. Because falling short of the ideal only induces more misery. I know that physically I'm probably never ever going to feel even 25% as good as I once did. It kills me. Everyday it kills me. I am jealous of every human being who doesn't have what I have. Angered by every dumbass who can't relate and offers idiotic suggestions. Angry at myself for things I might have done that somehow brought my condition on.

All I can do is accept this what is, recalibrate my expectations, feel gratitude where I can, and do what I can to ease the physical suffering. No I do not think this physical condition is perfectly analogous to depression. I don't think you or me or anyone should stop desiring to have that kind of normalcy, but I sure don't see the ugliness in Ellen's comments that most people seem to. I feel like I see a few people really enabling some self-defeating/righteous indignation. Obviously I don't know Ellen, so I can't fill in the blanks about her personality and just think "There goes privileged, ignorant Ellen being Ellen again"... but without that context, they look like things I've thought myself. I especially can imagine things I've said to other people, people who've watched me suffer and seen me convulsing in pain over the years, and the conversations I've dragged them through... and god Ellen looks a lot more patient and like she's actually thinking about my situation more than I could ever reasonably expect.

"Better than before" is a great place to be. That is the goal of everyday and you know what, most days I fail. They are the only days that make "normal" even remotely possible, but they are still godsends on their own.

Obviously you can unscreen, I'm just a lurker reader (and admirer, despite our division on ol' Ellen).

Feel free to unscreen

[serpentrose]

Warning: The following is mostly half baked thoughts.

Sometimes people find it easier to give up, to accept half a loaf, than to quest for the Holy Grail (So to speak)

For myself the goal is to have as happy and fulfilling a life as I can with my unique set of issues. I'll have smaller goals from day to day. On my worst days the goal is just to get through it. My current short and medium term goals are to figure out what sort of help will be most helpful for me and to go about getting that help. (Preferably without having to have another stay in the hospital.)

I had a conversation about a sober alcoholic, his preferred terminology, who said that he knows he will never be free of the disease. It will always be there in the background. He doesn't allow it to control his life, and he doesn't let himself go all "Poor me" about it, but just deals with the cravings when they hit. I suspect that for me that's how things will be, I will be able to get my problems under control, but they will always lurk. I can not speak for your situation because I do not live in your head.

That said on a good day/week my depression and related issues are hardly thought about. When things are going well and my stresses are under control I can seem almost normal.

Also What is normal? I'm not even sure it exists.